The Burnout Antidote with Anne Berube, Ph.D.

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Roni: Today I'm talking to Anne Berube about her new book, The Burnout Antidote. This is for anyone who overgives and depletes themselves in the process of serving their families, clients, patients, or communities. So pretty much women everywhere. In The Burnout Antidote, Anne helps you access your innate capacity to heal, and she shows you that your burnout can become a gateway to embodied wisdom and vitality. Discover how to communicate with your inner child and reclaim the lost and fragmented parts of yourself. Learn to overcome obstacles and gain access to limitless spiritual energy. Anne Berube is a spiritual teacher with an uncommon ability to share her story and insights in a way that awakens the inner wisdom in others. She helps people free themselves from the societal and parental conditioning that's holding them back from realizing the highest calling of their soul. Her work has also allowed her to share the stage with renowned self-help luminaries, including bestselling authors Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, and Elizabeth Gilbert, to name a few.

So, hello, and welcome.

Anne: Hi Roni, so good to be here with you.

Roni: Yeah, I'm so excited that you are. Thank you so much for doing this. I can tell you I've been reading the book recently and it is fantastic. It is a must-read literally for women everywhere and it is such an important read. So thank you for writing it first of all. To start, it wanted to.

Anne: Thank you for reading it.

Roni: No, it's really really good. Every like, every paragraph I feel like, “oh this is so good”. Anyway, so let's start with, what is burnout? Let's just sort of maybe you can explain to everybody what burnout even is and how can they recognize it when it happens to them.

Anne: So you know, I've what I've noticed is that burnout is a spiritual problem and it needs a spiritual solution at the core root of it, It's a crisis in meaning, and so where you know we've just been digging in deep to find energy to do the things that we have to do. We've been digging in and trying to access these little pockets of energy that are left like we don't have access to that sustainable source of energy that we would have if we were really directly plugged into our core essence. And so, for me, burnout is really intelligent. It's actually quite a gift that you receive in your life to let you know, OK, there's so much more than you can be. There is another way to engage life, and if you continue this way, you'll just, you'll just feel sicker. You'll get more disenchanted. You'll feel more down and you won't feel fulfilled, and I think that that's all. That's what we all want to feel is at the end of our life know that” oh, I led the life that I wanted to lead, like the one that inspired me. The one that came from my soul. And So what I've noticed, and I wrote the book for myself because I was, you know, I had a limiting belief around burnout, I thought that you know when you are on your spiritual path when you're two feet on the path and you've finally found what you love and what you want to do for the rest of your life that you don't burn out. And I, you know, I have this belief that we're like immune. Somehow once you're on the spiritual path, and it's not true. I burned out when I was you know a spiritual coach, and so you know what I realized is that my propeller, like what was making me want to be of service, was coming from a limiting belief that I need to be needed to know who I am. And pleasing was kind of a consequence of that, or a symptom of that, and so when I wasn't needed, I didn't know who I was, and so that was a big existential question is if I'm a service because I need to be needed, then that's not connection to the core essence. That's not because it's who I am because my soul is enthusiastic and and and and desires to engage life this way, it's because of a condition pattern from my childhood where I was needed pretty much you know from a very young age. Like I knew who I was when people needed me and when I was useful. So I asked myself the question like who was I before I was needed and so that was kind of the propeller for the book. Like it was the inspiration for the book, is wow there is so much we need to learn. And especially people who are highly sensitive empaths. Some people have service around empathy and around boundaries and around fire and around anger like there's all these like rules that are not ours like we never agreed to these rules and they just they don't support, you know, a healthy, happy, energetic life. So that's to answer your question, what's burnout?

Roni: I love when you were talking in the book about the difference between, you know because you talk about humans being wired for service and I love when you talk about the difference between why we serve and understanding why we're serving and you know you were just saying that you recognize that in yourself, and certainly for me, this was the case as well. It was the same thing. I need to be of service, I need to be, you know, helping or doing for others or you know whatever and I see this in clients a lot to this idea that we always need to be serving and doing, for others to get love.

Anne: Yes, exactly exactly. Yeah, and when we don't know that that's why we're serving we build resentment. We feel unfulfilled. We don't know what to do with our, you know our resentment in our anger and it doesn't really make sense like we don't understand why. You know, shouldn't helping other people make me feel happy?

Roni: Yeah, but it's coming from a place of, it's coming from, instead of coming from that place of alignment and as you talked about fulfillment, it’s coming from that place of need and almost like you know, what can I get from this service that I'm engaging in, right? I need to get this. It's like a selfish kind of I need love and so I'm going to do this. Because I need this person to fill me up in ways that I feel depleted already.

Anne: And I love that you said selfish because we don't think it's selfish when we serve like that we think like taking care of ourselves and loving ourselves is selfish and it's backward. Yeah, because serving like that is actually, you know, quite selfish. Like you said, because you're actually now holding the other person in the highest potential that they can because you're not holding yourself in the highest potential that you can be. So when you can love yourself deeply and you know I talk about it in the book like an unconditional, kind of divine embodied love for yourself like that something that we're not taught in schools it's you know, not super available everywhere. But when you get to do that, you just naturally you'll love everybody in a much deeper way and your service will be powerful. It'll be very, very powerful as opposed to you know, little bits of energy here and there that I can give because I'm depleted, I'm fatigued and I'm drained.

Roni: Yeah, it's more like giving for the sake of giving and serving instead of giving for the sake of getting something in return.

Anne: Mm-hmm yes exactly and there's so this you know, what I've discovered after doing a lot of the emotional work around this for myself is that there's a place inside our bodies where we have access to that to that original reason why we were born. You know that. What is the fulfillment for me in this lifetime like I have it encoded in my body like my soul just incarnates it in my body and so if we can pay attention to that then we can, we can take steps towards, you know, saying no to a lot of things and saying more yes to other things in our life really changes.

Roni: Umm yeah so much and I love one of the quotes that I specifically highlighted from your book. You said your body has been your ally all along. You just didn't know it, and that so deeply resonated with me, because obviously, you know, I and like many women who like me who struggle you know, with weight and food and all of those things, we spend our lives so much in that complete disconnect mode from the neck down. We're completely and totally disconnected from our bodies and so this idea that there might be actually information hiding down there that we can access is completely and totally foreign because we're just trotting around like floating heads, right? And, you know, rejecting our bodies so much that we can't listen. We can't hear, we can't tune in, we can't do any of those things and we just keep staying stuck in that fight of resisting all of it. And you know all of that, so I love that quote: your body has been your ally all along. You just didn't know it.

Anne: Again, we weren't taught how to listen to the body. You know, it wasn't something that was described to us or even modeled to us by our parents or even like our coaches, our teachers like we weren’t, we were modeled, it's better to stay away from the emotions, yeah? Which is the way that our body talks to us, you know, and it's better to stay away from those emotions and rationalize them up in your head and your intellect and make sense of them so that you can control and manage your environment so that you can control and manage your life so that you can stay safe and

Roni: And so that you can control and manage your body.

Anne: Yes, exactly in return it's like, yeah where did it all start? Was it me controlling my body, so my mind controlling my body? Was it my body controlling me?

Roni: Yeah it's, not only are we not taught how to listen and how to do those things, but a lot of times we're actively taught to ignore.

Anne: Yes, yes.

Roni: Right, we're taught to ignore, to resist, to control, to fight against, and all of those things so.

Anne: Yes, yeah, and so you know when I say your body is an ally like I, I mean it in this way that you know, it actually has like a lot to teach you, but I also mean it as it's the instrument for your soul. You know, like it is the instrument that your soul chose in this for this human adventure, and so it's literally the device that allows your soul to be in this like to be incarnated in this lifetime, and so it has. Like all the things that your body communicates like the past traumas and it communicates like the things you need, the things you want. But it also communicates like your higher self and your gifts and who you really are and why you're here and what you really want. So it's quite an incredible machine and it is the gateway to you know, to get to transcend burnout. It really, truly is. You can't transcend burnout with the intellect. If you just stay in your logical mind, you cannot.

Roni: So true. So can you talk about some of the hidden benefits of burnout? It doesn't always seem to feel like there are any benefits, and I certainly fought it for a lot of years myself, but in recent years I've come to this understanding that it's so much more than something to fight and resist and pretend that isn't happening to me and it's more communication and a message and a catalyst and so many things. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Anne: Yeah, it's a gift. It really is a gift. It's your body's way to say like if if you keep going this way you're gonna do some real damage and I'm telling you right now that you know not only can you avoid the damage, but there is so much joy, so much fulfillment, so much clarity and so much inner freedom that's available to you if you just listen to me right and it's your body's way to protect you from that damage to come and to show you your gifts to show you who you really are and why you came here and so sometimes I see you know burnout as an almost like a rite of passage. It's, I think if you are someone who has big dreams and you have big intentions and big emotions like, if you're channeling all that fire in the wrong place, you'll hit the wall you really will, and so burnout is brilliant in that way because it's saying, hey, you know, take a step back, take a few deep breaths. Take care of yourself. Listen to your heart, because there's actually another way. Where you can actually if you bring your focus and attention and your love towards who you really are, what you can manifest and create in this lifetime is like you can't even imagine it right now, so that's the gift that burnout is. It's incredibly intelligent. It's not happening to you to tell you that you're not enough, to tell you that you are not good with time management, tell you that you are not smart enough. It's happening for you.

Roni: So true, so true.

Anne: It's a big difference.

Roni: Another quote that I highlighted from the book. You said, “on the outside, I appeared happy, independent, and driven but inside I always felt like I was one step behind where I thought I should be never feeling like I was doing enough depleting my energy and looking outside of myself for ways to feel better. Looking back, I can say I was living as the image I had of myself, not as my actual self.” I think a lot of us can relate to that.

Anne: So like you know, you know what you want to project and you know how you want the world to see you as and you have this idea of who you should be, and so that's all making your decisions for you as opposed to hey, right here, right now in this moment I am full. I'm full and myself. I'm all of it. I'm whole and then you know with that comes a vulnerability and the shame and all those emotions that we just kind of don't want to tap into so if living your real self as opposed to the image of yourself is a priority Uhm, your life will drastically change. It really will because then it becomes, it becomes really sensual, and I mean that in a sensational way, like in that sense is like you're here now so you feel it all. But your life is a real and your life is authentic and it's messy and it's like sometimes it's confusing because you change your mind so often, but changing our minds as part of being who we really are as opposed to if you decide on who you're going to be, you know then you can't change your mind. And if you change your mind, you are very disappointed in yourself and so you hate yourself even more. So giving ourselves permission to change our minds is living as our real selves because we're creative beings. We change all the time. So if we don't change our minds, we're actually getting in our own way.

Roni: Umm yeah, so much truth and you know, I, I was certainly somebody who spent most of her life, at least you know my adult life playing a role. Completely and totally playing a role of who I thought I was supposed to be. Yeah, well, hiding or trying to hide that real me underneath right because there was that, you know, I was completely convinced that that the real me was dark and terrible and horrible. And all of these you know, all of these things, and it was just those stories that I was telling myself about you know what I thought was the real me. And so there was always like this mask. Right, just the role that I played, and I think that's so real for so many people. We just and, you know, because we're not in touch with ourselves, we don't know, we don't even recognize where we're playing a role in wearing that mask, but of course, we're going to burn out.

Anne: Yes, and to make it even more tiring, we use different masks for different environments. Or we use different roles for different people. So then in a run of a day, we might be one person, two at work, and then one person with our friends and then one person. With our kids and one person with our husband. Like it's exhausting.

Roni: It is exhausting.

Anne: It's exhausting, it's fragmented. It's fragmented.

Roni: And honestly I credit living that way for so long to being a big part of what contributed to my depression. On top of just on top of burnout, depression because it depresses you. Like it, it holds you down and keeps you locked in those roles.

Anne: In those roles, you're not allowed to feel the truth, and that's what depression is I can't feel.

Roni: Yeah, absolutely.

Anne: I won't feel.

RonI: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So speaking of feeling. The other thing I really loved was you talked about the dark side of empathy, and as somebody who has always been a bit of an empath, I can certainly relate to this one as well. So can you talk a little bit about that? And how does empathy hinder us on our pursuit to lead meaningful lives?

Anne: Mm-hmm, I think that it's heralded as like a hero right now like empathy is. It’s what we need is what we need. It's what we need, but there's a way to use empathy that is healthy and then there's one that's not, and so psychologists make the difference between psychological empathy and emotional empathy. So I would say embodied empathy and disembodied empathy and so this embodied empathy is OK, let's say I am in a one on one session with you or your my mother or my friend and I'm having a conversation with you where you have a problem and I'm going to help you, and so emotional empathy is, first of all, there's contagion of emotion right away, so I'm taking on your emotions. Like, my boundaries are porous and I just allow this to be mine as well, right? Like whatever you're going through is also then my perspective narrows because I'm only focused on your problem and I'm actually not considering the greater good and I'm not considering your potential where both of us are in the problem. And often when you work at that level, well, first of all, it sounds sustainable because it will drain all your energy because you're not tapped into yourself, you're really, you're up and you're out of yourself. You're in the other person’s problem. Embodied empathy is I'm in front of you and I understand what's happening to you, I understand what you're feeling and I understand your emotion, but I'm not taking them on. I understand them psychologically, right? And I am grounded in my own core essence. So my attention is not even on your words, my attention is not even like on your emotions. My attention is on my grounded life force in my body and then when I do that, I'm telling my whole body and I'm telling my soul that I'm in reverence of myself, right? So if I'm in reverence of myself, I can be in reverence of you so from that deep grounded place, I stand in reverence of what you can be. I stand in reverence of the potential that you hold. As opposed to trying to bring you back to a normal base with emotions, and so that's completely different when you're in the presence of someone who's listening to you and they have embodied empathy, you feel like. There's not just hope, but there's joy, and there's a fulfillment that's available to you because the person is not meeting you where you're at. The person is meeting you at your soul. And at that, in that moment, there's a real contagion of light, as opposed to emotion. Yeah, so it's very different, and I think that because we were told that service is more like martyrdom. In helping others, you just give everything you've got. We think of empathy, empathy as this heralded value, but it can be extremely toxic. A lot of people just stop doing what they do because they can't take it anymore because they don't know how to shift this perspective around empathy and around service.

Roni: Yeah, I loved that whole section because again certainly for me. That was definitely the case for so much of my own life and I didn't even really realize it until a few years ago, right that I was taking on everybody else's emotions. I mean, you'd know that you're doing it, but you don't know that you're doing it, you know? Or you don't know that there's another way. And just being around people was exhausting because it was like I was soaking in everything that everything everybody around me was feeling. You know first I had to figure out how to manage my own emotions, but then on top of that, there was this place where I was like, OK, how? Do I manage everyone else is too, but it's not about that. It's about not letting them in those ways. And so I loved that. I loved the way that you separated that because I think that's so so important.

Anne: And a little bit further in the book I talk about like the predator energy, which if you are an empath who has disembodied empathy, you are familiar with the predator energy who comes in like a vampire and just drains you until there's nothing left and you have to pick up your pieces and then just try to rebuild yourself. And so one of the kind of radical messages of the book is the only way that you can protect yourself from predator energy is to remove yourself. And even if it's a parent and so, if someone's of service. They'll say, well, that's the most selfish thing I could do. Like that's not me. I am a person who gives. I'm a person who loves right. Well, what we fail to understand sometimes is that our capacity to love is actually greatly reduced because we have the porous boundaries and allow our energy to be drained. So if you do take yourself out of that relationship, even for like a couple of weeks couple months, your body, your person, and your nervous system gets a chance to rewire and to say hey, we're safe. Because when there's predator energy in your daily life, whether it's like someone texting you every day or it's someone in your house like it doesn't matter, you get a little hit a firefight, yeah, and so your body is never fully relaxed and when your body is not relaxed, you cannot find your power to get through burnout. Your body needs to be relaxed to be in creative mode to be in expansion mode and to have access to that soul realization that we all look for.

Roni: Yeah, that's so true, and I mean, I lived most of my life with my body literally in protection mode.
24/7 and again without even realizing it. And yeah, you're so limited when you're living in that space, and I mean, it's taken me a lot of years of practice and learning and unlearning and those things. But yeah, it's just.

Anne: Very limited.

Roni: You know that protected state is so limiting. So speaking of energy, vampires, and predators. What about if you're somebody who has to care for narcissists.

Anne: Well, you don't have to care for a narcissist.

Roni: That's so important. You don't have to. I love that.

Anne: So yeah, why? Who says you have to? It's mostly you that think you have to. There's someone else more suited than you to take care of this person. And if this, if this person really does need care, then there's someone else better suited if you being there to care for them, burns you out, there's nothing intelligent about that. There's nothing about the way the universe works the way that reality, rules work, like the laws of nature like nowhere is, does that make sense that you burning out is what's needed and what's intelligent and so. That's never going to bring anything for either of you. The predator energy of the narcissist will never be filled up anyway because it’s like a hungry ghost. Yeah, they will just keep eating your light, but then they need to come back for more because it's an empty, unfillable hole, void that they're trying to fill, and so you going back for more abuse. So you go and I don't want to blame the victim here. But what I'm trying to say is that when you put yourself in that situation, you are giving them permission to take your light. And so if love, you do not understand it any other way than a narcissist taking your light, and that feels like love to you then that's what you need to look at is that there's another way to be loved, and it does not include you being hurt. It does not include you being hurt, and that's hard. That's a big life lesson. But it will. And the first step is just to remove yourself. Why is that? The first step? Because then your body can relax. Then you can do the emotional work. Then you can do the self-inquiry work to say huh. Where does this come from? How did I learn love? Where does this habit come from? Like and you know, do I even know what love looks like? And that's work you can do once your body feels safe.

Roni: So good. So recovery, taking yourself out of the situation when it comes to predator energy uh-huh. What are some other things, you talk a lot about retreats in the book and I like in particular you talk, you talked about retreating into ourselves?

Anne: Yes, Oh yes.

Roni: So much yes. But you also talk about going away for retreats as well.

Anne: So I wanted to make sure that people knew that they didn't have to spend thousands of dollars to do this work. That was really important to me that it was accessible that you know a 3-minute breathing practice when you wake up in the morning can get you started, it really can. It's a retreat. Yeah, especially if you're not used to meditation and you're not used to taking time for yourself doing this very simple breathing practice, you'll start to feel a shift of oh OK, I get to decide you know how I feel.
I get to decide. And you know, I don't have to react to my day. I can be the one that invites and allows these experiences as opposed to, you know, having them happen to me.

Roni: Yeah, just that, just that that process of just stopping and breathing and you know looking in.

Anne: It's very, very different.

Roni: And connecting with what's going on inside is so so powerful. It's such an underutilized skill in our culture.

Anne: It is and it's you know, I say this at the very beginning of each happy session is if you if all you do this weekend is is, breathe deeply and your attention is in your body is not in your head, and it's not in my words, and it's not in what you should do, it's actually just on your breath, maybe in your heart, or maybe in your belly, wherever you feel it and that's all you do, your life will be different on Sunday, like you will be a different person. That's how powerful it is. But we're so busy we just don't do that. But it will, it will just, it will change you.

Roni: Yeah, absolutely.

Anne: It’ll free you.

Roni: It will free you absolutely it will change you. It will help your body relax, will help release that protection state that you live in goodness knows that I lived in for so long, yeah, and for me, it took a lot of practice because just the thought of stopping and breathing, yeah, and just being quiet with myself was very scary. Yeah, it's scary.

Anne: Yeah, yeah, it's overwhelming because maybe it's like you know, 25, 30, 40 years 50 years of emotional baggage that we never looked at. And then if we stop and breathe deeply, it can feel a little bit like it's a tsunami. So you know, I would say to your listeners like if this is something you want to do, but you feel like it's a little scary definitely ask for someone who knows how to hold space in the embody way like in a non-judgmental way so that you can have a witness there to help you with your emotions if they do come up. The witnessing part is so so big, everybody goes through trauma. And we can't stop our children from hurting. We can't prevent them from hurting themselves from having gone through trauma. But the big difference between someone who you know has to do all this work like we had to do, and someone who you know it's not as big and dramatic as that is the witnessing of the trauma. So when something happens to us and we look around. And we're looking for safe eyes or we're looking for that presence that says it's OK, tell me. How do you feel? You know, if we can just in that moment, our emotions can move and they can be seen and validated and then we move on. It's not really what happened to us like there was not bad and so a lot of the times you know those get wired in the body and then we have to be witnessed when we're older and so that's what a friend or a therapist or like someone, a coach, a counselor can do for you. You can even say what you need. Can say I just need you to listen without interrupting. Actually, because I've never said this story out loud, it will change. It will change everything. And so when our kids go through trauma, all we have to do is breathe deeply and listen to them and be present in our bodies like that reference for ourselves while they're going through their traumas and we are saving them so much therapy by just being there, listening to them, witnessing them and in a way that her whole body demeanor says. All your emotions are permitted here, yeah? All of it. Yeah, including the shame and the guilt. And the secrets, like all of it. So so hen the kid goes out in the world and knows it's capable of moving through quite a bit because it's been witnessed.

Roni: Yeah, so much truth and so speaking of, you know witnessing the emotions of our children… what about with our inner children or inner child.

Anne: Yeah, there's a big, the center of the book, is this like turning point in the process where you meet the inner child and you know when trauma happens and she's not witnessed. She just kind of protects herself and then she feels these layers and these walls around her so that she can keep safe. Your power, your innocence, your purity, yeah and so meeting her kind of turning your gaze towards her and listening to her. And feeling her in a way that she knows that you're not going away anymore, that you're not you are here to stay, and then you're going to be the mother to her that she's always wanted to have or you're going to be the father to her that she always wished she had. And you talked to her. Like you would talk to an infant or a toddler like hi sweetheart, I love you so much. I'm so sorry you're hurting. And so this relationship with the inner child becomes the most important relationship in your life. And when she feels safe when she starts to let go of those layers. She reveals this incredible power and this incredible purity and innocence, which is the core essence and it holds your gifts, and it holds. Who you're meant to be? 

Roni: Yeah so good. So what's your number one piece of wisdom or advice or your single best strategy? Or what one thing would you say for anybody experiencing burnout?

Anne: Well, the first step is to stop. You cannot. That's it. Like you can't logically, figure yourself your way through burnout. You just can't, and so you could change a couple of things here and there, but it's not sustainable, it'll just come back because it's not about what it's about. It's never what it's about. You think it's about this and it's not. It's about something much deeper and the only way you can access it is to stop. And so if you're listening to this and you've tried a bunch of things and it's not working. And you've contemplated maybe taking a day off or a morning off, or you've been, you know, you. You really need three months, you know like, and then you're like that's so silly, but you know your body wants it. You know that you know the next diagnosis is more than burnout. You know, you just know it. Yeah, and so what will it take like? It's a matter of life or death really. So listen to that. Believe yourself when you have that desire in your heart like this. Longing for quiet days where nothing happens and you just hit the wall and breathe. And feel your whole body. Come listen to that and believe it. Nobody else is going to come and say I really think you should do that or I really feel strongly that that's what you need nobody. Nobody is going to be an advocate for yourself as much as you can be, and so you have to be the one that kind of goes against the grain and says. I have to do this. I have to do this. Not just for my health and my happiness, but I'm doing it also for my children and the people I serve because I know that on the other side of that time I will be more grounded, resourceful, loving, patient, and powerful, and so wherever you go, whether it's like a warning off for two days or three months, just bring the book and do the process.

Roni: Yeah, I always say it's like an engine light in the car. Right? We can deal with it when it first comes on, or we can ignore it for months and wait till the engine blows up but at some point, we're going to have to deal with it right?

Anne: Yes, exactly exactly.

Roni: And it's so funny that you said that you talked about staring at the wall because that's kind of a running joke within my group with my clients. I remember one night on a call one of my clients was saying you know, so like, what do you do when you don't feel like doing anything when you're just so tired and you just don't feel like doing anything? And you know you're kind of in that place where you're you know you're annoyed with yourself because nothing is like you know, you try to read a book and it's not working and you try to have a bath and it's not the thing and it's you know you watch TV. It's not the thing. So what do you do? I said, well, have you tried just laying down and doing nothing? Like if nothing is the thing that like nothing is settling for you, and so and so I talked about how you know sometimes I do that, I'll just, I'll just lay down and I will stare at the wall.

Anne: It's really regenerative.

Roni: Everybody in the group just sort of burst out laughing because it sounds absolutely ridiculous when you say it out loud, but it's so effective, and but so that came that became the running joke. What do you do? Well, I'm just going to stare at the wall for a while.

Anne: I know it's if the body responds to that so much and often it when you do that after a couple of minutes your body goes, oh oh, she's really doing nothing. Let me show her, let me show her how tired I am. Let me show her this emotion that's been lingering. Let me show you, you know. And so yeah, it's incredible.

Roni: Yeah, the two..

Anne: It's painful.

Roni: the two best things that I've noticed come from staring at the wall time. Yeah, it's either one, yes, some stuff comes up that needed to come up or two, I feel more energy energized and I'm more creative and I can get more done. And it's the most productive time of my day.

Anne: Yes, exactly exactly. Yeah, I agree.

Roni: Yeah stop, I love that. Just stop.

Anne: It's simple, it's easy, it's free, it's free.

Roni: It's not popular, but it's free. It's so good it is so good and it's so important. So yeah, anything else that you want to leave our listeners with today.

Anne: I'm just really happy that I got to be in conversations with you in conversation with you and I just, you know, I just hope everybody believes themselves. I think that's you know. It’s like believe you, you, you know so much about what you need, but you're not used to trusting yourself and so I would encourage everyone to double down on the trusting of yourself.

Roni: I love that. What a perfect note to finish with. So thank you very much for joining me to find out more about Anne and her new book, The Burnout Antidote. You can visit I'm going to leave all kinds of links in descriptions and everything as well too and to her book and to her socials and everything.



To learn more about Anne and her work, visit:

Buy The Burnout Antidote:

Connect with her on social media:




The Academy is a specialized group coaching course. It combines a wide range of scientifically proven, evidence based modalities into an easy-to-follow step-by-step process that helps you understand why you can't stop eating in ways that don't serve your best interests and how to stop. It has been meticulously crafted and tested for almost three years with one goal in mind - helping you move past all the things that are keeping you stuck repeating the same self-destructive patterns so you can find peace and start living and feeling better.



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